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Old 5th June 2014, 02:39 PM
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The way science comes to a conclusion is by logic and empirical evidence. When an experiment and it's results can be repeated over and over again then that is a proven theory. And our knowledge of a subject can be constantly revised to add to the understanding of a subject.

We KNOW that evolution is accurate, and we KNOW that the earth is many millions of years old. We are also aware that we don't know everything. Which is why science is always adding to our knowledge. Collectively we refine our knowledge through progress. Sometimes refining, sometimes completely redefining to accommodate new ideas and theories.

Fundamentally, religion is the opposite. It is the implacable, unshakeable BELIEF that fuels religion. And that is dangerous and arrogant. Despite all evidence, logic and reason.

We are all entitled to believe what we want to believe, but that shouldn't spill over into the public arena. When public services are available they should be inclusive. It shouldn't matter what religion or colour or gender you are, the service provided should be suitable to people of ALL faiths and also suitable for people who have no religion at all.

Which is why we need to stick to the FACTS, not an individual interpretation.
You have your beliefs and I have mine. I will agree with you on the point that all services need to be for ALL people regardless. That's a given. But my argument was with calling religion a "fantasy". So many people speak up against FAITH, but we ALL have faith every day, no matter what we believe in. It takes faith to close your eyes at night and believe that you'll wake up in the morning. Without faith, we'd all crumble in fear. It's just that many choose to have faith in a higher power, while some choose to have faith in science.

Which takes more faith to believe? That the known universe came into being from one solitary single cell, that exploded and out of that came all life, all planets and stars.....or to accept that there was a great designer to all these things and that he loves us as his children and is there to help lead us in the right path? In other words....which takes more faith? To look at a painting and say that no one at all painted it...that it just appeared out of nowhere? or to accept the fact that there was a painter and that he wants to know us and he wants to let us come to know him also?

Which is easier for you? You can believe what you want to believe, Jim. I'll always respect you and you have every right to believe what you want to. No man can take that away from you. But remember this...I'm just as convinced that Christ is real and that he is my savior, as you are that he doesn't exist at all.
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“For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance, he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.” - Robert Jastrow, 'God and The Astronomers'

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Old 5th June 2014, 03:01 PM
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I think creationism, as a literal interpretation of the bible has been proved to be wrong. But intelligent design is a different thing. I can't think of any scientific theory that can disprove the theory, therefore I'm open minded about it. My objection is to teaching literal creAtionism as fact, that is just wrong.

Religion is an important subject, and should be taught in schools. But religion should not be taught as FACT.

I think it is quite possible that there really is an historical figure called Jesus and that he may have been a remarkable man. You may chose to believe he is the son of god, but to me that's a leap too far. Soto keep us both happy we can study the teachings of Jesus as politics rather than religion.

When I'm see some of the crazy things that are claimed by some people of faith it makes me think that the teachings of Jesus have been forgotten.

Forgiveness, protection of the vulnerable, and a rejection of earthly wealth in favor of the poor and dispossessed seem to have been forgotten by some people who call themselves religious.
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Old 5th June 2014, 03:21 PM
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When I'm see some of the crazy things that are claimed by some people of faith it makes me think that the teachings of Jesus have been forgotten.

Forgiveness, protection of the vulnerable, and a rejection of earthly wealth in favor of the poor and dispossessed seem to have been forgotten by some people who call themselves religious.
Here is our common ground. I totally agree with you there. The rest, we will simply have to respectfully agree to disagree. But I would sincerely like to continue this discussion on the latter part of your statement.

Sadly, just like anything else in this world, some people claim to be one thing but show the attributes of another. But if we read the Bible, it warns of those false prophets, and it tells us that we can "know the tree by its fruit." If anybody claims to be a follower of Christ, but does not keep his commands, then that person is not a true follower of Christ. Sadly, a lot of false prophets have led many astray and have harmed millions. Those people are the real problems in this world.

As I have heard many preachers say, "the problem isn't from outside the church. The problem comes from within the church. From the ones who claim to be of Christ, but are filled with bitterness, strife and all sorts of evil."
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“For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance, he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.” - Robert Jastrow, 'God and The Astronomers'

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Old 5th June 2014, 05:47 PM
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Religion is an important subject, and should be taught in schools. But religion should not be taught as FACT.
The only religion that should be taught in school is one course that educates children on all religions. All children should understand what the majority of different religions believe and follow, so that they can try and understand all cultures.

Otherwise, there is absolutely no place whatsoever in schools for religion.
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Old 5th June 2014, 06:07 PM
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I don't see a problem with most science. I just don't understand why people who don't believe in God find it necessary to fight against people who do believe. I am a scientist myself in many ways. I love studying meteorology (the weather). It's a very awesome thing and I have spent hours and hours studying it since I was 8 years old.

Over the years, I have come to this realization. Science and God can and do coexist. I don't believe everything that science teaches, just the same as not everything that's being taught by religious people is right either. Both sides have people who have hidden agendas and axes to grind. They're human, and wherever there is human thinking, there is always room for false teachings and honest errors.

If you look closely, you will see....the only difference between science and religion is that science is the study of the creation and religion is the study of the CREATOR. Simples.
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Old 5th June 2014, 06:21 PM
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I don't see a problem with most science. I just don't understand why people who don't believe in God find it necessary to fight against people who do believe. I am a scientist myself in many ways. I love studying meteorology (the weather). It's a very awesome thing and I have spent hours and hours studying it since I was 8 years old.

Over the years, I have come to this realization. Science and God can and do coexist. I don't believe everything that science teaches, just the same as not everything that's being taught by religious people is right either. Both sides have people who have hidden agendas and axes to grind. They're human, and wherever there is human thinking, there is always room for false teachings and honest errors.

If you look closely, you will see....the only difference between science and religion is that science is the study of the creation and religion is the study of the CREATOR. Simples.
That's interesting, because I don't understand why people who do believe in God find it necessary to fight against people who don't believe. My child should not have to learn a religion that I don't believe in just because for centuries people have been forced to follow it.

Most things in science can be proven. Nothing in religion can be.

Almost all wars have been started by religion. Not one has been started by science.

In Canada, when we bought a house years ago, we had to pick whether the school portion of our property taxes was going to go to Public Schools or Catholic Schools. To this day, every year, we have to tick off which one we want to support. It drives me crazy. To me, there should only be one school, a public one, that has no religion involved. If one wants their children to learn their, or any, religion, by all means go to your house of worship however many times a day/week/month and teach away. But there is no place in schools for it in my opinion.
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Old 5th June 2014, 06:30 PM
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Not all wars have been started by religion. Forget ye not that Stalin was an atheist and he had an estimated 60 million people killed for no reason. Those are the low-end estimates. There's no way to tell exactly how many were actually killed because the communist government was so secretive in the USSR. They were a good example of what happens when man worships government. You get communism.

I don't even know where to begin when you say that most science can be proven and religion has been debunked. Science has been proven by what? By stuff that other scientists have force fed you! Most science is true, yes.... but ALL of it??...no! They sneak in enough truth in there just to hook you... And even if science were proven, HOW would it disprove religion? I have experience that speaks against what your books have taught you. In my heart, I know God is real and no man can prove that wrong. God has touched my life in a REAL way that science cannot explain away.

With that said. I respect your beliefs, but all I ask is...don't try to prove mine wrong. So many people teach acceptance of all cultures, but those same people seem to be the very ones who are the first ones to want to lock religious people out and dismiss them as people who believe in fairy tales.
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“For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance, he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.” - Robert Jastrow, 'God and The Astronomers'

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Old 5th June 2014, 06:57 PM
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Amen to that.




Btw.



Who the FK is R???????
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Old 5th June 2014, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by GefferyMorgan View Post
Not all wars have been started by religion. Forget ye not that Stalin was an atheist and he had an estimated 60 million people killed for no reason. Those are the low-end estimates. There's no way to tell exactly how many were actually killed because the communist government was so secretive in the USSR. They were a good example of what happens when man worships government. You get communism.

I don't even know where to begin when you say that most science can be proven and religion has been debunked. Science has been proven by what? By stuff that other scientists have force fed you! You're guilty of being "brain-washed" just like some say that Christians are brain-washed. Most science is true, yes.... but ALL of it??...no! And even if science were proven, HOW would it disprove religion? I have experience that speaks against what your books have taught you. In my heart, I know God is real and no man can prove that wrong. God has touched my life in a REAL way that science cannot explain away.

With that said. I respect your beliefs, but all I ask is...don't try to prove mine wrong. So many people teach acceptance of all cultures, but those same people seem to be the very ones who are the first ones to want to lock religious people out and dismiss them as people who believe in fairy tales.
Not all wars, but most have had something to do with religion. The majority. Because people believe that their religion is the right or best or oldest, etc. etc. Its not the case. I don't care who believes in what, I care about what kind of person someone is. If you believe in a higher power and that's what gets you through the day, all the power to you. I don't believe in one. Doesn't make either of us better or worse. Our morals and principals and character is what makes us better.

And you've contradicted yourself when it comes to science. I never said that all in science can be proven. But a lot can. And you admit that. How do you prove religion? You can't. I never said science disproves it, but I do believe that science and religion are, and should be kept, two completely separate things.

Trust me, I'm not knocking what you believe, but I do strongly believe that religion is a personal thing to be kept in one's personal life. I think also that education should be public, and monitored for standard. We should not be letting Catholics go to Catholic school, and Muslims to Muslim schools etc. to get a general education. All religions should have to get a general education and then get to chose what supplement education they want. Another issue that I have as a Canadian is, I can support public or Catholic schools with my taxes, but I cannot support a Muslim school, or a Jewish school. Why not? Why only Catholic? (I'm not knocking the Catholic religion, they are the only choice we have to support so I'm using them as an example). What if all religions got a general education through a school based on their religion? How could we monitor what was being taught and make sure it was all at a high standard?

I'm not trying to prove your beliefs wrong. Again, I'm just saying that your beliefs aren't others, and therefore they should not be taught to the general population as if they were everyones.
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Old 5th June 2014, 07:20 PM
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There can be no equivalence between science and religion. Science is physical. You put your hand in a flame it burns, no matter how much you want to believe it won't.

Religion is about belief and metaphysics. Best left to the individual.

Both science and religion can be wrong, but science can learn and change it's conclusions. Religion is resistant to change because of its certainty. That to me is arrogant.

Scientists know that they don't know. But religion see itself as infallible. The opposite of open minded. Every religion sees it's laws as fundamental. Passing on the "word" or truth through the generations.

Problem is, there are limitless numbers of religions that have contradictory "truths" that are incompatible with each other. Which way is the average agnostic supposed to turn ???
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