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Old 5th June 2014, 12:37 AM
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Default Fact or fake.

There is a row going on at the moment about some Islamic schools in Birmingham.

According to the media it started with an anonymous letter sent to government suggesting that some "free" schools have been infiltrated by Islamic extremists, and they are using governing boards of these schools to introduce fundamentalist propaganda to the school pupils. The specific expression used in the anonymous letter was a "Trojan horse". Not the usual thing to say for a Muslim parent or teacher in an inner city school.

It is now widely believed that this letter is a fake.

So who or why would someone fake a letter accusing Muslim parents and teachers of extremism and inciting terrorism ??

Rewind back to 2006 and Gove (an ex journalist in the pay of Rupert Murdoch) wrote a book called "Celsius 7/7". It was a polemic about the dangers of Islamic extremism on the streets of Britain.

Chapter eight of his rabid right wing diatribe is called " A TROJAN HORSE".

Could the fake letter be traced back to goves own department.???

Surely not.
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Old 5th June 2014, 12:31 PM
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Wouldn't surprise me Jimmy.Thought this story had gone quiet.Looks like anti Islam nonsense.Having said that I'm not a fan of faith schools in general.
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Old 5th June 2014, 01:02 PM
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Wouldn't surprise me Jimmy.Thought this story had gone quiet.Looks like anti Islam nonsense.Having said that I'm not a fan of faith schools in general.
I'm not a fan of government funded schools. But we have them anyway. He who funds the schools, controls what's taught in the schools. The government is currently raising another generation of children who will grow up and keep us in debt and on the dole because the system is heavily flawed with money-hungry people who don't care about humanity. So I'm all for faith schools and privately funded schools. Take the power out of the hands of the government and put it back in the hands of the people.
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Old 5th June 2014, 01:06 PM
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The Tories are trying to out-UKIP UKIP, out-BNP the BNP and out-EDL the EDL
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Old 5th June 2014, 01:48 PM
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I'm not a fan of government funded schools. But we have them anyway. He who funds the schools, controls what's taught in the schools. The government is currently raising another generation of children who will grow up and keep us in debt and on the dole because the system is heavily flawed with money-hungry people who don't care about humanity. So I'm all for faith schools and privately funded schools. Take the power out of the hands of the government and put it back in the hands of the people.
I'm sorry R, but I think that is completely wrong. Governments are (in theory), democratic representatives. They are there because that is what most people want. Much better that the school is controlled a democratic process, rather than personal wealth.

If education is controlled by private individuals then how can we control the quality and accuracy of what they teach. ? Is it better for wal-mart to control our children's education.? This leaves our children open to be indoctrinated by dangerous ideology. Or teaching our children fantasy as though it were real (creationism).

At least through government we have some control over what our kids are taught, we can always vote that government out of office. That way EVERYBODY can have an input through the democratic process, rich AND poor.

Without that the only people to control education will be those that can afford to set up there own schools. I don't want children's minds controlled by corporate interests.

God knows, they influence society enough As it is.

Without any democratic accountability.
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Old 5th June 2014, 02:04 PM
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I'm sorry R, but I think that is completely wrong. Governments are (in theory), democratic representatives. They are there because that is what most people want. Much better that the school is controlled a democratic process, rather than personal wealth.

If education is controlled by private individuals then how can we control the quality and accuracy of what they teach. ? Is it better for wal-mart to control our children's education.? This leaves our children open to be indoctrinated by dangerous ideology. Or teaching our children fantasy as though it were real (creationism).

At least through government we have some control over what our kids are taught, we can always vote that government out of office. That way EVERYBODY can have an input through the democratic process, rich AND poor.

Without that the only people to control education will be those that can afford to set up there own schools. I don't want children's minds controlled by corporate interests.

God knows, they influence society enough As it is.

Without any democratic accountability.
You make good points for the most part, Jim. I perhaps should have said that I don't like the government controlling our schools as long as the government is a badly run organization that can't figure out its own problems, much less solve the entire world's problems. If we can get people in office that know what the heck they're doing, then I'd be all for government run schools.

As for creationism being a "fantasy". Jim, I've always had good discussions with you and don't have any qualms with you as a person...if I did, I wouldn't be on here having this discussion with you. But I must admit that calling creationism a "fantasy" is a bit of an unfair poke at religious beliefs. Just because you or someone else doesn't believe in a particular religion doesn't mean it is not real, or that it's fantasy. I won't get in too deep into a religious debate on this topic because I don't want to hijack the thread. But let me just say this....no one can PROVE the big bang THEORY or evolution, just the same as many claim that God doesn't exist. A theory is something that is an estimated guess....even science itself realizes that. Which means, it cannot be proven as fact because there was no one there to witness the beginning of time, and no man ever lived long enough to prove evolution. So with that said...creationism is no more a "fantasy" than evolution is.

With that said, I respect you, Jim, and maybe some day soon we can have a friendly debate on our beliefs.
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Old 5th June 2014, 02:06 PM
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The Tories are trying to out-UKIP UKIP, out-BNP the BNP and out-EDL the EDL
I think gove is a special case though saad. He's one of those armchair hawks. He loves acting "tough" from behind his desk (and security guards).

He reminds me of that character from "the office" who is disturbingly weird and keeps telling people how he knows how to kill a man with a paper clip because he learned it in the TA.

Obviously mercilessly bullied at school and has spent most of his life fantasising about revenge. He uses his position to feed his warrior fantasies, knowing he will never personally be put to the test in his cosy little office.

I can just see him standing In front of a mirror in his bedroom (surrounded by top-of-the-range airfix models and hundreds of WAR magazines) dressed as Lawrence of Arabia, or Rommel.

One revue of his ridiculous book pointed out that gove had never visited or even travelled to an Islamic country, knows nothing about the religion or history and has probably never even met a real Muslim.

Gove (his nickname is POB) is a terrible politician, and an even worse human being. We should abandon him in the middle of small Heath in brum, and see how long he lasts.
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Old 5th June 2014, 02:08 PM
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After reading two eloquent,well argued cases I've got one question.

Jimmy,who is R?
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Old 5th June 2014, 02:11 PM
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After reading two eloquent,well argued cases I've got one question.

Jimmy,who is R?
I was wondering that too, Tom lol. Senility sets in at an early age in some people. It isn't Jim's fault.
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Old 5th June 2014, 02:27 PM
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You make good points for the most part, Jim. I perhaps should have said that I don't like the government controlling our schools as long as the government is a badly run organization that can't figure out its own problems, much less solve the entire world's problems. If we can get people in office that know what the heck they're doing, then I'd be all for government run schools.

As for creationism being a "fantasy". Jim, I've always had good discussions with you and don't have any qualms with you as a person...if I did, I wouldn't be on here having this discussion with you. But I must admit that calling creationism a "fantasy" is a bit of an unfair poke at religious beliefs. Just because you or someone else doesn't believe in a particular religion doesn't mean it is not real, or that it's fantasy. I won't get in too deep into a religious debate on this topic because I don't want to hijack the thread. But let me just say this....no one can PROVE the big bang THEORY or evolution, just the same as many claim that God doesn't exist. A theory is something that is an estimated guess....even science itself realizes that. Which means, it cannot be proven as fact because there was no one there to witness the beginning of time, and no man ever lived long enough to prove evolution. So with that said...creationism is no more a "fantasy" than evolution is.

With that said, I respect you, Jim, and maybe some day soon we can have a friendly debate on our beliefs.


The way science comes to a conclusion is by logic and empirical evidence. When an experiment and it's results can be repeated over and over again then that is a proven theory. And our knowledge of a subject can be constantly revised to add to the understanding of a subject.

We KNOW that evolution is accurate, and we KNOW that the earth is many millions of years old. We are also aware that we don't know everything. Which is why science is always adding to our knowledge. Collectively we refine our knowledge through progress. Sometimes refining, sometimes completely redefining to accommodate new ideas and theories.

Fundamentally, religion is the opposite. It is the implacable, unshakeable BELIEF that fuels religion. And that is dangerous and arrogant. Despite all evidence, logic and reason.

We are all entitled to believe what we want to believe, but that shouldn't spill over into the public arena. When public services are available they should be inclusive. It shouldn't matter what religion or colour or gender you are, the service provided should be suitable to people of ALL faiths and also suitable for people who have no religion at all.

Which is why we need to stick to the FACTS, not an individual interpretation.
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